1-on-1 Interview: Jay Skapinac (SkapAttack) On Kobe Bryant, Lebron, & YouTube Stardom

We commemorate Black Mamba Day with a special episode honoring the late Kobe Bryant through an in-depth conversation with Jay Skapinac, founder of the rapidly growing YouTube channel Skap Attack.

• Jay shares his journey from aspiring sports journalist to creating one of the fastest-growing sports channels on YouTube
• How Kobe Bryant's legacy continues to influence fans and players worldwide
• Exploration of media bias in basketball coverage and how narratives shape player legacies
• Personal stories from both host and guest about attending Kobe's legendary 60-point final game
• Analysis of today's NBA stars Giannis Antetokounmpo and Nikola Jokić as spiritual successors to Kobe's competitive mindset
• Discussion of all-time NBA rankings and what criteria should truly matter when evaluating greatness
• Behind-the-scenes insights into building a successful YouTube channel from scratch
• Advice for pursuing your passion regardless of age or circumstances

If you're inspired by this conversation, consider how you might apply the Mamba Mentality to your own goals and challenges. As Kobe showed us, perseverance through adversity is what truly defines greatness.

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Transcript

Honoring Kobe Bryant on Mamba Day

Speaker 1 0:00

All right, guys. Thank you so much and welcome. This is Stephan Piscano with the Stephan Piscano Podcast. We have been on a summer hiatus, but we're coming back with a bang. Guys, and if you are among those that listen to this show that don't want to hear me talk about sports, this is probably not the best episode for you, but today is an incredibly special day to me. Today is August 24th, which is Black Mamba Day, honoring the late, great Kobe Bryant, one day after his birthday, august 23rd 1978, where, if Kobe was alive today, he would be 47 years old. And for me, like millions of other Kobe Bryant fans around the world, this is a special day. It's a day to honor him, and one of the ways that we're doing that on the show is I had the great privilege and honor to interview Jay Skapanik, the content creator and founder of the YouTube channel Skap Attack, which is one of the fastest growing channels in sports media. At the time this episode is going live, he has nearly 100,000 subscribers. He's a sports historian and, in a very, very short period of time, has really taken the sports media landscape by storm. So I believe that we're going to be hearing from him in multiple platforms in bigger and better ways, and I can't thank Jay enough for taking the time to sit down with us. He really couldn't have been more gracious. We got to talk sports in general Kobe Bryant, lebron James for nearly two hours. For those of you that are interested more in the entrepreneurial stuff that we normally talk about, you can just skip to about the hour and 20 minute marker, because he did as somebody. That's been a viral success, with social media really taken YouTube by storm. Like I said, he gave us some tips from an entrepreneurial standpoint on how to grow a YouTube platform that I found extremely valuable and I think you will too, so I'm going to play that interview in a moment Before we do.

Speaker 1 2:03

I just wanted to talk a little bit about what Kobe Bryant means to me and why this is such a special topic for me. So a lot of you in my network know my backstory. I moved 30 plus times before I was 18 years old, had kind of a little bit of a wacky childhood in 1996 when Kobe was drafted by the Los Angeles Lakers. When you're sitting around with your buddies, I said to one of my friends that guy's my favorite player, having no idea what he was going to amount to. I had just seen him win the slam dunk contest in 97, and I just liked the style of this game, and at that time I actually was rooting against Michael Jordan, even though I now realize and realize, well, I realized back then that he was the greatest player ever to play. I wanted to root for someone other than the Bulls and Michael Jordan.

Speaker 1 2:56

And so, watching Kobe develop, watching the obstacles he overcame from the moment that he came into the league and you'll hear Jay really get into detail on that during this interview Watching everything that he overcame from shooting four air balls in his first playoff series against the Utah Jazz as a 18-year-old rookie to having to fight for playing time on his own team, to having to overcome really hurdles the likes of which, in my opinion, no other all-time great player had to overcome from playing with broken fingers to broken eye sockets, to shooting free throws with a torn Achilles tendon and the media pushback that he had to fight against his entire career. He personified to to me greatness in an athlete and in an individual. And having someone like that, having someone that I as a teenager, as a young adult, as someone trying to get into business in my 20s and in my early 30s that I could look at and see how they overcame adversity in anything that they were setting their mind to. It's a fundamental principle of endurance that I think about all the time and honestly, even today, with trying to get this dang thing edited in time to have it live, which I just barely made it by about an hour here to get it live on the day I said it would, with a bunch of other obstacles and things going on this last week. Here I think about what would Kobe do and he would always put in that extra effort.

The Rise of Skap Attack

Speaker 1 4:36

And for me, as somebody that was moving around so much throughout my childhood, one of the few constants in my childhood was, wherever I was, whatever was going on, kobe was always there. I could always watch the Lakers games obsessively, I could always cheer, I could always keep up with the statistics and then, because of my age and Kobe playing 20 years, being able to follow him into my adult life and then ultimately moving to California and getting to see his games in person and then going to his final game, which Jay also did as well, and we talked a lot about what that final game, where Kobe Bryant scored 60 points meant to both of us. It was the most beautiful thing to take this relationship with someone that you've never met, that you were such a fan of from childhood into my 30s, and to be able to realize that so many other people had a similar relationship from afar from. Kobe means a lot to me and, honestly, I don't care how many listens or views or subscribers we get off of this. This one was just for me. This one was special for me, and it's great to know that there's someone entering the sports media landscape that has their facts straight and we get to celebrate and honor the legacy of Kobe Bryant and NBA basketball in general in such a beautiful way. All right, guys, thank you so much and welcome.

Speaker 1 6:09

This is Stephan Piscano with the Stephan Piscano Podcast, and I got to tell you, guys, we've had a lot of great guests on this show. We've interviewed real estate moguls, war heroes. We've had some stock market gurus, war heroes, we've had some stock market gurus. I have never been more excited and, honestly, more nervous than I am today because we've got somebody on here that I'm a genuine fan of. His name is Jay Skapanik, which I hope I pronounced correctly. He's the founder of the YouTube channel Skap Attack with nearly 100,000 subscribers. He is a diehard Kobe Bryant fan, as am I, and I believe articulates sports content better than anyone I've ever come across.

Speaker 2 6:54

Stephen, my absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for having me on. I'm looking forward to having the conversation with you and I'm very humbled and appreciative for that great lead-in you just gave me.

Speaker 1 7:04

Well, I try, I try. Buddy, I've got a lot of things I want to cover with you. We want to talk about sports, of course. I want to talk about the entrepreneurial side of what you're doing, but I want to take it back because you're pretty new to this right. You're about two years in and you've had pretty explosive growth. What was it that gave you the idea that you even wanted to pursue going the YouTube route and really taking your content mainstream in that way?

Speaker 2 7:31

Well, it's a great question and I'll try to keep it as brief as I possibly can. But in my undergraduate life, which is a long, long time ago now, in a galaxy far, far away, long long time ago now in a galaxy far, far away, but I was, you know, I was in broadcast and print journalism at, actually, penn State University. So that was kind of my life's ambition or goal or dream, I guess. Well, actually I had three. I've had three dreams my whole life Be a professional athlete, be Tom Cruise, or be Jim Rome or somebody of that ilk, you know, like a, like a national talking sports head. So you know, the the professional athlete thing kind of sailed. I'm too old for that. You know, I don't think Tom Cruise is in my is in my cards at this point.

Speaker 1 8:18

I pull it off you know.

Speaker 2 8:20

But you know, I figured you know, basically one of my life's goals was to be, you know, one of these known national sports kind of personalities, and I was working towards that in my early life. Oh, my goodness, Sorry.

Speaker 1 8:37

Is that the famous it is?

Speaker 2 8:40

Let me just pick her up here real quick. Let me just pick her up here real quick For those that don't know in my audience, jay's cat or dog.

Speaker 1 8:47

Here is a I'm thinking because I've got five cats, but his dog is a celebrity on your channel, correct that?

Speaker 2 8:53

is true, that was little Luna. This is actually Stephen. I don't know if you should feel honored or angry. This is pretty much the first time she's really disrupted a recording. No, I'm honored, brother, that's great so she's really disrupted a recording. No, I'm honored brother, that's great. So she's really. She's saying hi, yeah, she is a 12-pound Shih Tzu and she's very, she has a lot of sass.

Speaker 1 9:12

So she's got some super chats over the years, right, I think she has, she has and she's, yeah, she appears in some videos and stuff.

Speaker 2 9:22

So but anyway, since she so rudely interrupted us, yeah, so I was kind of in that, on that trajectory. Coming out of college, you know, I worked in the, in the industry, so to speak, for about two years and at that point just kind of diverted down a different, a different path of you know, different jobs, varying industries, of things that never really satisfied or fulfilled me. So you know, I was approaching quickly this kind of birthday this year, this arbitrary number which you know like milestone number, two years ago, and I decided it's virtually, it's pretty much now or never. So if I'm ever going to rekindle this, take this journey or take a shot at, you know, chasing down the dream, now is the time. So luckily I am married. Luckily I have a very forgiving and understanding wife.

Speaker 2 10:19

So you know she's like do you know, do whatever, pursue whatever you, whatever you want, pursue whatever you think. You know she's like do you know, do whatever, pursue whatever you, whatever you want, pursue whatever you think. So I gave myself at that point like a pretty much like a year timeframe where if I, if I, if I didn't succeed, you know, in a year, then I would just take it, you know, as a as a sign that I'm not meant to do it. And I didn't. You know, at that time I didn't even really know how I was going to start this journey because I didn't know much about social media or video editing or anything like that.

Speaker 2 10:48

But in this age of you know digital social media things, I just assumed, you know, I could start this journey from anywhere, really, as long as I could learn some rudimentary things about YouTube uploads and social media, you know marketing and stuff like that. So I just kind of jumped in two years ago, like you said, I think it was March of 2023 was when I really started. So absolutely coming up on two and a half years. But yeah, it's been a crazy, pretty rewarding journey to this point and I'm thinking I'm just kind of at the starting point still. So I still feel pretty early on in this journey and I'm just excited to see where it goes from here.

Speaker 1 11:32

And it's been so exciting and you know, you know and your audience, that's on their nose, but my audience, just so you know, I'm kind of a scap attack super fan and I basically stalked him to get him to do this. Actually, you were very generous and kind, but for me one of the key things for those that don't know that just made you stick out to me and I think the video that the first video years that I saw was called the Last Choke, which I think is one of your more famous ones I think it has 400,000 views somewhere around there.

Speaker 2 12:01

So, yeah, it's in the 300,000 range, I think. Now, that was my first. I told you I started in March of 2023. That video came at the end of May 2023 when LeBron was eliminated, when they got swept in the Western Conference Finals by Nikola Jokic and the Debra Nuggets, and that was the real one. I was sitting around 600 or 700 subs six, yeah, six or 700 subs at that point and that one, that video just blasted me off and put me over the thousand mark and I've just been a steady ascent since then. But, yeah, that one, I think it was like May 28th 2023 or something like that, a date that will live in infamy for me for my YouTube journey. So, yeah, when we spoke on the phone the other day, you had mentioned you alluded to that being kind of being with me since then, and that's pretty much the beginning that you. So you've been with me since the beginning, essentially.

Speaker 1 12:51

Yeah, well, and where I'm going with that too is two things, I guess. Number one, just as somebody that I guess has been watching this as a fan for the last two and a half years here it's two and a half years here it's been such a cool thing to watch and you do such a great job of cultivating your audience too to where you really connect with the people in the including myself, obviously. That's you know. But I'm wondering what does that feel like? So you started in March. That happened in May, so you have two months where you're growing at a steady pace. What does it feel like when that first video hits and you're getting hundreds of that? You go from hundreds to hundreds of thousands of viewers watching your content. What does that feel like?

Speaker 2 13:32

yeah, it was, honestly it was. It was kind of overwhelming at the at the moment that it happened. You know, I, my truth be told, two of my two friends of mine um, let me go back a little bit further. I have this march madnessness tradition with two friends from Pittsburgh that's where I'm from originally and we've been watching March Madness together for basically 20 years now and pretty much every year for the last five or six years I do the invite for this event and I do some crazy funny YouTube video. So two of my my best friends told me like I should have, I should be YouTubing and become a YouTuber. So four years ago they set me up with the scap attack channel, taking my Twitter hand, my Twitter handle, which I've had for about 15 years of scap attack. So they took my, my Twitter handle and made this channel and I did virtually nothing with it for two years.

Speaker 2 14:25

I just let it kind of sit there and you know, in March of 2023, I decided well, how hard could this YouTube thing be?

Speaker 2 14:34

Like I just need to if I just devote as much time and energy as I possibly can to it every day? I mean, obviously, like I could just grow this thing very quickly, immediately, and I guess in hindsight, like for a lot of other people in the YouTube journey they've gone through, maybe two, two and a half months Isn't probably all that much time to work on something, brother, but for me I was like, after like two, two and a half months, I'm like man, this, this YouTube thing, is harder than I thought. You know, like I'm, I'm putting in eight, 10, 12 hour days on this channel and it's like I'm getting, you know, a couple, 200, 300 views on these videos that I thought were outstanding videos and it was. It was pretty discouraging. And then when, yeah, when that last choke one popped off, it was at now it doesn't sound like much at all. I think it got like 25 or 30,000 views in the first 24 hours. Uh, now that's just like a standard.

Speaker 2 15:30

Yeah, it's standard or maybe even probably a little bit below what I, what I'm anticipating when I upload now these days. But back then I was like, oh my, this is unbelievable growth. Like I think I got maybe 2000 subscribers in the span of like 36 hours. So it was, it was definitely it was overwhelming in a good positive way and I still, I still feel that way. Um, you know, you mentioned my like cultivating of the audience and stuff. It's cause I genuinely just connect with all of you guys, like it's just I, it's just uh to me like I don't think it will ever get old, like I'm just so thankful of having, you know, such a faithful and rabid audience base that like really goes to bat for me and comes out pretty much for like every video and supports me. So it's just a really cool thing and I just feel so very thankful for all of you guys. So that's why that's kind of that feeling will never dissipate, I don't think.

LeBron vs Kobe: Media Manipulation

Speaker 1 16:30

No, and you can feel that I mean and honestly, I think part of what and this is a good segue into some of the Kobe LeBron stuff but I think part of what that is is obviously you're a diehard Kobe Bryant guy, as I mentioned at the top when I first saw your video, and I've been guy, as I mentioned at the top when I first saw your video, and I've been obsessively a Kobe guy for, you know, for his entire career and since and when you grow up like that, it's a very lonely place, right, because sports media for so long doesn't give that side of the coin, you know, because, in my opinion, they make more money, which and I can't even blame it because it's profitable to have a current player debated against a. I can't even blame it, because it's profitable to have a current player debated against a retired player. So for them it's a strategy with LeBron versus Jordan. And then you're watching the games if you're really a sportsman and you're watching LeBron choke his ass out year after year and you're just saying, well, what I'm seeing with my eyes doesn't match the coverage that is being reported, and I was thinking about it leading up to this interview. To my knowledge, there's never been a full on Kobe Bryant mainstream media person. You know you, like you mentioned in a comment I put it Rick Buecher. He, he's pro Kobe but he's not avidly like these LeBron and Jordan guys are.

Speaker 1 17:43

When you, it's kind of like the old Rush Limbaugh saying he used to say you know people would say, well, he's telling people what to think and he would say, well, no, I'm just reflecting what they already think and they can't get it anywhere else. And you, when I saw that first video, you reflected it so perfectly and with the analytical data I did, in such a beautiful way that it not only creates a view but it creates a passionate follower and because you are sincere with that, obviously, then it creates this cohesion that I think leads to the growth that you have. Is that just a completely organic process that it evolved that way, or have you retrospectively looked at that at all?

Speaker 2 18:22

Yeah, it's. I mean it's getting to the point now where it is. It's evolving, and I had really no idea what was capable on YouTube, or you know how people make money on YouTube or build businesses through it, so that really wasn't a consideration, um, when I started this. It's getting to the point now where I have to think of it as a business, um, but still, though, it's rooted in my passion for the things I'm talking about. You know, I don't I don't really make content just just to try to, you know, get clicks or views.

Speaker 2 18:54

I basically everything I do, everything I'm working on every day, is just something that that I'm passionate about, something that I want to talk about or tell a story about, so that I mean that's absolutely like at the heart of everything that I do, and I don't think that that will ever change. And two of the things I'm most passionate about is LeBron is overrated as hell and Kobe Bryant is underrated, and those two things to me, as you kind of alluded to, are connected. They're intertwined. A lot of people in my fan base or subscribers think of me as an anti-LeBron guy, but it really is more so, born out of the fact that I'm a pro-Kobe guy Because Kobe came first and Kobe owned that era first. So really the ways that I feel about LeBron is just reactionary because of what I know to be true about Kobe Bryant.

Speaker 1 19:46

Well, and you can feel just like how. You can feel the authenticity and the sincerity of your content. You can feel the media manipulation with LeBron stuff to the point where I wonder, when I'm watching some of this stuff, how many of these people on ESPN and FS1 even really believe it or realize what they're saying, or if they're just being compensated in some capacity or another.

Speaker 2 20:10

I would think that there is a very small percentage of these media flunkies and stooges out there that are touting LeBron that really truly believe what they're saying about him. I mean, first and foremost, look, we've seen the rift between Stephen A Smith I use Stephen A Smith kind of as a barometer because he is, you know, the preeminent voice for ESPN. You know, maybe the most powerful you know sports entity the Disney Corporation and ESPN and Stephen A Smith is their primary mouthpiece. And you know, recently we saw over this last season, he kind of got into a fight with LeBron at half court during an actual game because of the way Stephen A Smith was covering Bronny. And you know the ensuant rift that ensued between Stephen A and LeBron at that point.

Speaker 2 20:59

But for years prior to that, you know, stephen A Smith has been just one of these sycophantic, you know, bootlicker LeBron James supporters who have just been, you know, pulling him drastically up the all-time ranks and talking about him, you know, in the same breath as Michael Jordan, I think, in a private moment, though Stephen A Smith doesn't believe and never believed that, you know, in the first place. You know, I think he probably barely has LeBron on his top 10 fringe but for whatever reason he's been mandated from the powers that be within the ESPN mothership. That he just has to talk this guy up and really just to ratchet up you know ratings and try to. You know cultivate viewers is pretty much the way I see it, and I think that is mostly true for most of these people that have been moving LeBron up because seven years the thing they they've been covering basketball for too long professionally, like they've seen too much yeah.

Speaker 2 21:56

Like you know, it's not like they got flashy thingy from men in black and just totally forgot. You know all of the, all of the errors and all of the greats that preceded LeBron, and LeBron just has too many damn blemishes for these people to really actively believe that it's Jordan, LeBron and then everybody else.

Speaker 1 22:14

Yeah, and this is the problem when I interview somebody that I'm such a big fan of, because my brain's jumping around all over the place here because you keep saying things that get me excited. But I got to. Okay, I'm just going to go with the most recent thing that popped in my head, which is Scab have you over the years, because I remember when LeBron went to Miami to form the big three, I was so happy about it at the time because I was like, oh good, he's never going to win another MVP. Now He'll never get credit because that's historically what it would have been for everybody else. Now he'll never get credit because that's historically what it would have been for everybody else.

Speaker 1 22:46

And I've been shocked throughout his career for 23 years now how the media covers for him time and time again to where I mean. And even he said in an interview that first season in Miami he said, yeah, I think when we all joined up, mvps were done for all of us and it's about a bigger goal. And then he wins two MVPs even. And now, with the Lucas stuff, you see Luca go from a universal top two three player to a fringe top seven, top eight player by the media. It's just shocking to me that, 23 years in, how they cover for this guy and I can't think of any other reason than financial motivation, like you just said.

Speaker 2 23:24

It just it has to be, and I think it honestly is like LeBron came along in a perfect time for him, because you know Michael Jordan, you know I think of Michael Jordan because you know I'm a child of the 80s and I grew up in the 90s, so I think of Michael Jordan's career as ending in 1998. But you know, of course, he went to the Wizards for two years. I believe his second year was 2002, 2003,. Was Jordan's like official last year in the NBA. The next year is the year that LeBron James came in. So the NBA was, you know, soul-searching at that point, trying to find the next torchbearer that was going to pick up for Michael Jordan. And of course you and I, being Kobe guys, were like, well, they don't have to look too far because they've got.

Speaker 2 24:14

Kobe Bryant in the NBA right now. Like what are we? What are we even talking about? But for whatever reason, you know, kobe had some right around that same period of time. Kobe had some right around that same period of time. Kobe had the off-court transgressions in Eagle County, colorado, in addition to, at that point in time, they went through the playoffs. That year they lost to the Pistons, shaq stuff, yeah.

Speaker 2 24:35

And then he forces Shaq allegedly forced Shaq and Phil Jackson out. So then Kobe becomes this pariah of this selfish shot ball hog who would rather you know score points than win championships. So all of that, coupled with the off court stuff, like all going on at the same time that Michael Jordan was exiting the NBA and then this chosen one, lebron James, that one of the most heralded blue chip recruits we'd ever seen coming out of high school, chip recruits we'd ever seen coming out of high school, just aligned perfectly with that time frame, and the NBA and all of the NBA's media just kind of married themselves to him at that point and it's just been, I guess, self-preservation all these years that they, that they, their viewership to some degree is tied intrinsically to him. So they have to do everything they can to uplift, protect him and of course we see how that's gone for the NBA Bad move because they're at nearly unprecedented low points in popularity and viewership.

Speaker 1 25:35

And this was what I was going to say when I was originally, and then you got me excited about all this other stuff. But that's the thing that is heartwarming to me is, first I see your videos and I go, oh wow, well, somebody else exists that thinks this way, but not only I mean. Then I see all the people in your network, hundreds of thousands of people that realize this, and that's heartwarming to see that people see the same stuff that we see and it actually feels like and I don't know if it's just the YouTube universe I'm living in, but it feels like the majority of people realize this whole thing is a sham, you know a lot of people do and a lot of people.

Speaker 2 26:16

I don't want to age it or put you know, put certain parameters on it based on you know when you were born, but I feel like my audience skews a little bit older. Like people I think you and I are about the same age. People you know, I'd say maybe like 30, 35 to 50 are like the real demographic. I think that just they've just grown, they've just seen it throughout their lives, like we've grown up watching it and we realize it easier. To me, the most rewarding thing is when I get younger kids on my channel or in the comments that are like yo Scab, I'm, you know I'm only 22 and you know you've opened my eyes. I think LeBron's overrated now. I got Kobe over LeBron now. So I get, I get quite a bit of feedback like that. So that that's really what, what warms my, my old heart at this point.

Speaker 1 27:02

You know, scab, I was going to tell you because right now. So I was born in 83. I think we're about the same age. Like you said, I don't know how, I'll just not. You know, I was also born in 83.

Speaker 2 27:11

Okay well.

Speaker 1 27:12

So we're not old brother, we're in our prime. We're in our prime, anyway, oh man. So let me ask you this. So it's been tied to, like you said and I love the way you put it people like Stephen A, people like ESPN, even Skip Bayless, who I was a big fan of until he kind of went weird the last few years here. Their revenue was tied in one way or another to LeBron. What do you think happens now that he really is at the end and you're starting to feel some of this shift, with the Lakers supporting Luka over LeBron and catering to Luka instead of LeBron? Where do you think this goes? Do you think that they stick to their guns or do you think that there is kind of a hard ending for him here?

NBA's Declining Popularity Post-LeBron

Speaker 2 27:54

Yeah, I think the NBA is in a tough place. They basically painted themselves into the corner because they've tied themselves to LeBron and stuck with him so rigidly throughout the years that now it's going to be a very difficult pivot point for them. They have a lot of great young stars right now in the NBA. Had they started marketing them more and building them more, you know, a couple years ago, they would be in a much better point for transition now. But now I think they've kind of they've just lost their way. So I think it's going to be they're probably going to bottom out even more. I know it's hard to imagine because they're already at a pretty big low point here, essentially, starting at the 2020 finals if you want to call it that the COVID-affected season the last one that LeBron won. Covid-affected season the last one that LeBron won that is still now the lowest-rated finals in NBA finals.

Speaker 1 28:50

I did not know that. Okay, that makes sense.

Speaker 2 28:52

Yeah, I believe the average viewer share per game was like 7 million viewers, which is just insanely low. You know, if you go back to, I know this is an outlier one too, but the 98 last dance Jordan Bulls won like that was pulling in you know, upper 20, like 26, 27 million and it peaked at like 35 million in one game there in that series. So, and LeBron and the Lakers were pulling sub-7 mil per game in 2020. And it's been bad ever since the last, like four or five, not as bad as that but it really hasn't recovered. And I feel like the finals are essentially a microcosm for the popularity of your sport, like that is the pinnacle of the season, like that should be the most watched moment of the year are those finals games, and when you look at how poor they are, comparatively speaking, from a historical standpoint, it obviously does not speak very favorably to what LeBron James has yielded for the NBA and I think it's actually going to probably get worse when he leaves, because they're going to just be at this crisis point where they haven't prepared anybody and none of the viewers are prepared with this next wave because they just stuck so rigidly to not just LeBron primarily him. But even like Steph Curry and Kevin Durant, like those are still look at the Christmas games.

Speaker 2 30:19

We have Stephen for next year, like it's, it's still all built around LeBron, kevin Durant and Zachary. We need to start thinking beyond that. They haven't even pushed Giannis, I hear you. I hear you. And it was basically like 2019 when Giannis became. I think Giannis won back-to-back league MVPs and a defensive player of the year during that 2019-2020 season. Then, of course, the emergence of Nikola Jokic came immediately after that, and neither of those guys seemed to tickle the fancy of the NBA's marketing machine. So I just don't know what has to happen to open these guys' eyes. But it's going to take these older statesmen probably their retirements for the NBA finally to begrudgingly move on.

Speaker 1 31:06

Well, and I've got two things I want to hit on.

Speaker 1 31:09

Because you touched on something I've thought a lot about privately and I wanted to ask you about going back to 03-04, lebron comes in the league, jordan retired the year before. I mean, the timing could not have been worse for Kobe for the reasons you alluded to the Shaq stuff, the Colorado stuff and it felt like they had no choice, like you said, to hitch their wagon to this guy. And then everything that's happened since then has been about backing up the opinion. I mean, I remember and you might be one of the only other people on the face of the earth that might remember this, but when the Heat went to the finals the first year, when they ultimately got destroyed by the Mavericks, but when they beat the Bulls in the conference finals, I went to ESPNcom and I remember there was an article on the front page that said LeBron reaches his place as the greatest of all time. And he still had no championships at that point. So they were saying this you know, before he had won any championships. And then it's just been about backing up that narrative and that argument. Okay, so here's my question If what they did with that strategy, if it's disgusting to basketball purists and people that really care about the validity of the sport, but it made them billions upon billions of dollars.

Speaker 1 32:25

This is probably the most pro-LeBron thing I've ever sport, but it made them billions upon billions of dollars. This is probably the most pro LeBron thing I've ever said. But was that smart? Because I can. As a business guy, I can understand. Like, okay, this is our marketing strategy, this makes sense, let's do it. And who cares if there's 20% of the fans that see it and are upset by it? We're still making money, yeah.

Speaker 2 32:44

I mean, the NBA has always been a star driven league and they, I mean it, it it absolutely LeBron. Look if you love, whether you love him or you hate him. Uh, he, he, obviously he is a very divisive figure. So it there. Pretty much is no in between. You either love or hate LeBron James, um, but he does engender, you know, viewership, and even just not just for the games, but for ESPN, like for all of their talking head shows, their debate shows and stuff. I mean LeBron and the Lakers or LeBron and the Cavs, or whatever team he's on, essentially is always, you know, top-notch debate fodder, so it's typically always leading the shows off.

Speaker 2 33:24

So I don't think you can begrudge the marketing machine for making the decisions that they did and it probably did, you know, even though the NBA is cratering out now, like I said, in its popularity, which they are, and and the viewership, but but yet they're still signing mega deals. That's what I mean. They just signed like a seventy seven billion dollar deal or something like that, for 11. It's like $11 billion annually or something $9 or $11 billion annually with NBC, disney and Amazon. I believe. So to your point, I guess, from a marketing and from a dollar and cent standpoint, it was the right thing to do. Unfortunately, it also put a lot of pressure on LeBron James, I think, pressure that he kind of helps to bring more upon himself, and I think it's destroyed his legacy to some degree, at least for people that are really paying attention.

Speaker 1 34:15

Yeah, and I mean I guess this is my nice LeBron portion of the podcast, because you know I almost feel bad for him. And this is the question I really wanted to ask you because I'm just curious if anyone else on the face of the earth remembers this. But there was a period in that time where, you know, inside the NBA had Kobe on as a guest and I remember they asked him who are the top five best players and who are the top five best teams in the NBA five best teams in the NBA. And the tone of that interview and I wish I could pull it up, maybe I'll try to find it and put a clip in here but the tone of the interview was like they were scolding Kobe. I remember he included himself in the top five and they said well, we're, you know, we congratulate you for putting yourself at fifth and not putting you at number one. That's humble of you. And he was like well, I didn't put it in order, I just tell you these are the top.

Speaker 1 35:07

And then they had LeBron on like a week or two later for the same interview and they asked him the same questions and LeBron said hey, if I see Kobe on the wing. I'm going to pass it to him and this was like his first or second season and I remember thinking LeBron even realizes Kobe's better than him, and I almost feel like he was forced into this situation where he had to create this false narrative by the big wigs at ESPN or whoever to present himself in this way. It almost makes me feel bad for the guy. I guess that's what I'm trying to say.

Speaker 2 35:40

Yeah, lebron, I think I saw him play in high school. I saw Kobe play in high school and you could see the differential. I mean, you could see Kobe Bryant was an alpha on the court. You could just see his tenacity, his desire to just break down people. You know, whoever was in front of him, even if it was three or four players passive mentality, even when he was playing against substantially undermatched players from a physical standpoint on a high school level, like he still just had more of like a pass first mentality even at that level, back when he was 18, 17, 18 years old.

Speaker 2 36:17

And I don't think it never, it never truly changed Like LeBron. Just he isn't, he doesn't have the alpha mindset. It's why he continues to roam around the NBA and try to join other you know alpha caliber players and it's why he doesn't mind, you know, deferring or saying even, I guess, even if just early in his career, that he would defer to someone like Kobe Bryant. I think often of when they were all on the same team, the 08 Redeem team, and you know they did do a good documentary piece on it about just how in awe all of those guys were of Kobe Bryant at the time, and they were all established stars by that point in time. You know, lebron James was just on the cusp of winning some MVPs and you know Kobe came in and basically all of them, even LeBron, admittedly was like you know, this guy's just different from us. So I mean they, they could, lebron could admit it, at least at an early stage. Now of course he's, his brain has been warped and he just thinks he's the greatest.

Speaker 1 37:17

Yeah and that, and that's why I have no sympathy for him now, cause, yeah, the last 10, 15 years he's bought all in and and hey, I mean why wouldn't he? He's worth a billion dollars for doing it. And if you're got to get you know honestly somebody gave me a billion dollars to act like a fraud I would do it too honestly. So I mean whatever, but I mean it's, it's infuriating for those who care about basketball. But well, okay, I'm going to go ahead.

Speaker 1 37:39

I'll get into the, the modern day stuff I wanted to ask you about, because this is one thing that I have to give you pure credit for. The thing that you have converted me on that everybody in your fan base really knows is you're a diehard Jokic guy and I was not. And then when I heard you talking so positively about him, I thought, well, maybe I ought to rethink this thing and I started paying more attention. You've got me on the bandwagon. I would pick Giannis over Jokic, but I respect him now 200% more than I did before watching your channel. But talk to me about your favorite players that are playing right now and why you have attached yourself to them.

Speaker 2 38:18

Yeah, I mean, you just named them. I think very little of a lot of the modern current players, two of the ones that I very little of a lot of the modern current players. Two of the ones, though, that I really do have a lot of respect and admiration for is Giannis Antetokounmpo and Nikola Jokic and I wasn't a big Jokic guy either initially. The first two MVPs he won, you know he was flaming out in the playoffs, but he also was missing either his best player or his next best two players in those playoff runs. So, but still at the time I was like well, okay, when's these two MVPs? And he's losing in the first and second round? Like this is. This is another LeBron situation we have going on here.

Speaker 2 38:54

But when I really dialed in myself and started paying attention to what was happening, the supporting cast that he had there, and it just kind of became reminiscent to me of of at the time when I, when he won me over of Giannis, what he did a couple of years earlier, and the reason why I kind of lumped them both in, you know, in in the same kind of deal, and I think of them both very highly, is because these are two guys, both now a decade plus in the league. They were drafted really to untenable situations in terms of, like the franchise, not great. You know well-known franchises, not big very very rich franchise.

Speaker 2 39:29

They're, you know, two small markets in Milwaukee and Denver, and these two guys just go about their work. They never demand you know more help, they don't throw their teammates under the bus ever, they don't beg for trades, they don't leave, they don't stab their franchises in the back and go and team up with some top five player. These are the two.

Speaker 2 39:50

To me, these are the two best players that the NBA that the world has had for probably about five or six years now, since 2019, I would say these are the two best players on earth and yet they just still stay in these small markets with underwhelming amounts of supporting cast. They never complain and they both have won championships Like they actually delivered. This would be. This would be akin to if LeBron didn't leave Cleveland to go to Miami, or at least if LeBron want actually delivered a title to Cleveland before leaving in his first seven years. So these two guys to me, I put these guys at a higher tier for my money than even LeBron James. To me, these are the two best players since Kobe Bryant retired, in my estimation.

Speaker 1 40:35

Without a doubt. I agree 100% and honestly. For me, giannis basically is a better defending, better rebounding LeBron James. If you didn't have the weird hype like that's him, you know which is a great player. That's why, you know again, I feel bad, in a way, that the media has put us in this position where they've got LeBron falsely propped up so high because it'd be nice to give him credit for being an all-time great player like Giannis or like Karl Malone, but you know, it's just not that well. It makes me think too, how much luck and timing plays into how your legacy is perceived. Right, because to me Giannis has got to be one of the most unlucky. And Jokic too, you know, with Jamal Murray getting injured every other year and all this stuff. But man, like talk, I mean, I think it. What think it? What is it like? Three, four years in a row, either he himself has been injured at playoff time or his second or third best player's injured. I mean.

Speaker 2 41:32

Both, yeah, both players. Yeah, Giannis missed the entirety of. They obviously lost in seven in the first round when he didn't play with I don't know, they were calling it a calf's reign, but I think he had some Achilles tendonitis or something going on. And then, you know, he hurt his back in the first game. I guess it was four years ago and he missed the first really three games and that's the year they lost to Miami. Then Damian Lillard was hurt. When he finally gets a top-notch star and Damian Lillard gets hurt then, and the same, like you said, same can be true with Nicole Jokic Starting in his first league MVP year.

Giannis & Jokic: The True NBA Heirs

Speaker 2 42:13

It's been five seasons now, from age 25 to 30, for Nicole Jokic and Jamal Murray missed two full post seasons in that five-year run. So his second best player missed altogether two full runs. And then Michael Porter Jr missed one of those runs as well. So his top two options other than himself. Then Murray, of course, wasn't, you know, close to being healthy last season. And then this year, you know, Aaron Gordon got hurt. Russell Westbrook was playing with a broken hand, we now find out. So it just seems like those two guys just can't catch a break with the health, either to themselves or their supporting cast, and they don't have a great supporting cast.

Speaker 2 42:49

To begin with, I was just going to say yeah, and yet again, no complaints. And they still both have a title, which is why I just think like you could easily excuse away both of them not having any championships at this stage of their career. Specifically Jokic, who has never played with an all-star yet in 10 full years. He's the only player ever that can say that he is. For the first 10 years of his career. He has not played with a single all-star, all-NBA caliber player or all-NBA defensive caliber selected player. He's the only player ever, for 10 years of his career, to not play with those guys. You could easily excuse away him when you again factor in the injuries as well, and yet he still found a way to win one again. That's just why I think so highly of him.

Speaker 1 43:33

Well, and I know that's what it is, you're kind of known for being an anti-Jamal Murray guy. Just a little bit right, just a touch.

Speaker 2 43:41

Yes, I do not think that highly of Jamal Murray. I think the problem is really Stefan, the fact that he's so overpaid. I mean he is making I think he's going to make $55-plus million into $58 million over the next like four seasons, and he, I mean he misses 20 to 30 games a year. Every year he shows up kind of out of shape to start the season, plays himself in to shape, but then typically carries some kind of an injury concern into the postseason and then he's, you know, hot and cold in the playoffs. So I just think Nicole Yokes, jamal Murray, would be a great third option on a championship team. I don't really view him as like a strong second tier player for a dynastic-type team which what we're talking about here is Nicole Jokic needs to win more than one championship to be considered top ten all-time. So yeah, I'm pretty hard on Jamal Murray, I'll give you that.

Speaker 1 44:36

I mean and you've kind of converted me a little bit on that too, because you look at his consistency and his numbers, and it's underwhelming. I will tell you, though, the pro thing, jamal Murray, I'll say that series that he had I guess it was in the bubble against Donovan Mitchell, where they were both throwing back and forth 35, 40 point games. That was something else, but it's bizarre that you can't count on him for that. He has this, this incredibly high, high, and then these shockingly low, lows.

Speaker 2 45:03

And he does have great moments and the whole 2023 run he was fantastic and, of course, what happened in the 2023 year was the Nuggets easily won a championship. That's my problem with Murray. If he just played up to his potential more frequently in the playoffs they would win more, and some of that obviously is tied to his health issues, which, again, I think is somewhat tied to his lack of conditioning and work that he's putting in the off season. But I mean, there's no doubt the guy has a high ceiling. But the question really is, like you alluded to, is consistency, and sometimes you know consistency is better, like if he would just be consistently good, it would be better than his. You know great highs, but then his terrible low points.

Speaker 1 45:49

Yeah, and it's bad when it's bad. It's bad for him. It really is. Well, let me, are you, uh, as a fan of both then were you happy that Giannis decided to stay in Milwaukee? And I? I've seen your videos. You're you're semi happy with the nuggets off season this year, right?

Speaker 2 46:05

Yeah, it's, it's hard. It's hard because I, I really strive One of the things I, I, I pride myself in in being as consistent and I and I, I strive. One of the things I never want to come off as in in life, but definitely on on my channel, or me as a as a personality, is being any kind of a hypocrite on my channel, or me as a personality is being any kind of a hypocrite. So a lot of people they're not nuanced enough to understand the context of what I'm talking about. I go into great detail in trying to outline it and define why I feel the way I feel.

Speaker 2 46:37

But I have been wanting Nicole Jokic and Giannis Antetokounmpo to get away from these franchises for a couple years now. Yeah, but then all of the LeBron Stan boys will come back and be like well Scab. This is just so utterly inconsistent of you. What a hypocrite. You crush LeBron all the time for the stuff that he did and now you're championing Giannis and Jokic leaving. But it's not the same and there are levels to this. I don't begrudge LeBron for leaving Cleveland after seven years, but it's just the decisions he made, the place that he went, the tactics that he took when he left is what I have a problem with. If LeBron wanted to go somewhere not like another top three players team like he did with Dwayne Wade, or go to the West or something like that maybe get one other guy with him, I would have been totally fine with that, yeah, so go ahead.

Speaker 1 47:29

I don't want to cut you off, but I got. I mean, that's the thing. It's not so much the tactic, to me, it's it's the reaction to the tactic, because I mean people forget for those. I guess that don't. I feel like everybody knows this stuff, but maybe not. I mean, dwayne Wade averaged 30 the season before he went he joined LeBron. Chris Bosh averaged 24 and 11, right, so I mean any other player, any other player that does that they can win titles, they'll get. It'd be like Kevin Durant with the Warriors. They're like, okay, yeah, you got two titles, but we're not really giving you full credit. And it's just so bizarre to me that Kobe plays with one all-time great teammate his entire 20-year career and those three rings just don't count at all to some people. Lebron's had that for all four of his rings.

Speaker 2 48:22

It's absolutely crazy. And just to really put a bow on the Jokic thing, I did a breakdown of like what, what Dwayne Wade did the year prior to LeBron and him teaming up. Like what was his MVP finish. You know what was his? His advanced analytics, the player efficiency rating box plus minus value over replacement, windshare it the most accurate comp in in today's year, like around the 2024 season, the most accurate comp to Dwayne Wade would have been Luka Doncic that year. So it basically would have been if Nikola Jokic went to Luka Doncic's team and then they recruited Anthony Davis, basically would have been the comp for Chris Bott. That is essentially what. If Nikola Jokic did exactly apples to apples what LeBron did, that's what it would be and that's not what I was asking. That's not when I say I want Jokic to get the hell out of Denver. It's not.

Speaker 1 49:15

I'm not trying to get, maybe like an all defensive player or maybe an all star fringe guy.

Speaker 2 49:22

Yeah, absolutely. But to your Kobe point though, real quick yes, absolutely, unequivocally. Like Kobe, has played with two top 75 players in his entire career, just two Shaquille O'Neal for the first eight years of his career and then Steve Nash, when Steve Nash was 38 years old.

Speaker 1 49:42

I forgot about Steve Nash.

Speaker 2 49:44

But he only played 50 games that year because he was so injured at that point and that was the year Kobe ruptured his Achilles, so they didn't even get a playoff run together. So that is literally it that Kobe played with for his entire career. It seems like LeBron has top 50 to 75 players on every team since he was 26 years old. Every single season he always needs more Stephen top 50 to 75 players, you know, on every team since he was 26 years old.

Speaker 1 50:05

Every single season he always needs more, stephen.

Speaker 2 50:07

He needs more because if he's not winning, it doesn't matter if he has a top three five player on his team or whatever. Like clearly he needs more. It's not enough. If the great LeBron is incapable of winning with the pieces he has around him, it's not his fault. It's got to be the supporting players and the front office for not putting the right players around them.

Speaker 1 50:29

Of course, yeah, and honestly, Jay, if I had the editing talent and any knowledge of YouTube whatsoever, like you do, I would do it myself, but I'd rather you do it and no pressure. But I'd love to see a video where we take the clips of what the same people said at the time of the Luka trade and then show the recent clips of what they're saying now, five, six months later, because it's just disgusting how many excuses this guy needs. I mean, like just the Lakers in the playoffs this last season. How many people on FS1 and ESPN you know Lakers in the playoffs this last season? How many people on FS1 and ESPN you know Lakers and five and all that crap picked them to win the championship or at least get to the conference finals, and then, when they get smoked in the first round, I hear people saying LeBron's the best player on the team and it's not his fault, it's Lucas fat and uh, you know they don't have a center and all that. Well, where was that intel when you picked them?

Speaker 2 51:25

Yeah, and it seems like it is literally every year. I tell this story often. It's just so funny to me.

Speaker 2 51:34

Chris Carter, you know, hall of Fame wide receiver, most known for the Minnesota, his time spent with the Minnesota Vikings but he started his career off in Philadelphia and he had some some off field transgressions.

Speaker 2 51:45

Uh, early on in his career had was mixed up with with some some negative elements and almost derailed his entire career.

Speaker 2 51:53

So they had you know they have rookie symposiums every year for the incoming uh, you know, first year players into the NFL and they have various guys veterans come in and talk about their experience and you know things to avoid or you know how to target success. And they had Chris Carter on and you know, presumptively he was just going to talk about how, you know he made mistakes early on and how to avoid it and he, dead serious, like it was not a joke, he said you have to have yourself a fall guy, like you have to have yourself a fall guy in your group. I forgot about that, but yeah, that's what I think of when I think of LeBron. You've got to have yourself a scapegoat or a fall guy if you're LeBron and it's typically, unfortunately for them the best player on the team other than him, or maybe even better than him, like I think AD has been better than him for the last couple years and Luka obviously is, but of course those are the primary fall guys. It can't be LeBron ever.

Speaker 1 52:47

Well, and even the guys and gals that support LeBron James acknowledge this stuff. They just don't acknowledge the reason. Like I know Shannon Sharp. I was a big, undisputed fan before they started sexually assaulting everybody, I guess, but anyway, I remember even Shannon Sharp, who's one of the ultimate LeBron guys.

Speaker 1 53:07

They I can't remember who the shooter was, but they traded for one of these, uh, top shooters and he said yeah, you know the the lights get bright when they're playing with LeBron, they don't shoot as well. You know, it was Malik Beasley. That's who? It was, malik Beasley. And he's like yeah, you know, and they're trashing Malik Beasley, who had a killer season this last year with the Pistons, and I'm like well, all I've heard this guy's whole career is he makes his teammates better because he's so unselfish. Who are the teammates that he makes better? Because everybody I see play with him. Their legacy gets destroyed. Anthony Davis goes from a top five player to street clothes. Dwayne Wade goes from a top three player to washed up and injury riddled. Chris Bosh is Bosh Spice. I mean, who does he make better?

Speaker 2 53:55

Even let me layer this one in on you too, Kevin Love, I talk about this name a lot too.

Speaker 2 54:00

I just want to give him a shout out. That guy was he was top three the year before he teamed up with Kyrie and LeBron in Cleveland. He was top three in PER BPM, value over replacement and win share, top three in all of those metrics. And he was second team All-NBA that year, second only because he's a forward by designation and Kevin Durant and LeBron James were first team forwards that year, second only because he's a forward by designation and Kevin Durant and LeBron James were first-team forwards that year Otherwise, and those were the guys that were in those top three and those four advanced metrics I just mentioned. So Kevin Love was pretty much a fringe top five to six player himself that year prior to going to team up in Cleveland and destroyed him too.

Speaker 1 54:45

I don't want to cut. I'm sorry for cutting you off, but I just you've hit another pressure point for me there. So your boy here made a video, which I don't do very often on sports. It got a whopping 21 views, but I did the screen. He was ranked on ESPN rank best players the fourth best player in the NBA that year. You can be my 22nd view. Go check it out.

Speaker 2 55:09

I will do that and I got to echo your message on that too. Like I said, top five to six player and then all of a sudden, he's a bum all of a sudden in Cleveland when he goes to team up with LeBron.

Speaker 1 55:20

It's sickening. I do feel like, and I don't know. I mean I've heard you say on your channel that you're kind of a pessimist, I mean, with this stuff, and I don't know if I am or not, but I've seen LeBron shift, like I said earlier when he went to Miami. I'm like, oh good, we got him, now he can't get his way out of this. I've seen him shift the narrative so many times, like I always expect that's what's going to happen. It feels like he's walking into a unique situation he hasn't been in before his entire life, really, cause he's been catered to, even as a child and a teenager and so on, to where he he's not going to be the star of stars and I'll throw this at you, knowing him being kind of a narcissist, the way he appears to be, I would assume he wants a great farewell tour. Where is he going to get that farewell tour? Because it's not going to be with the Lakers, not how he wants it.

Speaker 2 56:13

LeBron has been put in a very difficult situation by the Luka trade. So you know and that's the thing where I was I was kind of excited when the trade was made because I foresaw this end game coming, where LeBron has structured everything to be in LA and to finish his career in LA and, lo and behold, the franchise has decided to move on from him. They were presented with an opportunity to get Luka and they took it. And then, with the sale of the team, now Mark Walter comes in as the owner and he just doesn't have any positive feelings for LeBron at this point. I think in a perfect world, I think LeBron would have declined the player option, for, in terms of the Lakers, he would have declined the player option this summer and just left the franchise now and let them start building towards Luka. But you absolutely hit the nail on the head LeBron is going to want some kind of a grandiose tour. That's just about him and the Lakers. Not only is it about Luka, but they want it to be about winning. They don't want this disruption of these nightly LeBron antic tours for the next two years now, or you know, at least for the entire next season. Like they want to move on and try to capitalize around Luka Doncic and start winning and competing for championships.

Speaker 2 57:32

So I think, lebron, the writing is on the wall. Lebron is not going to retire at the end of this season and I think he is not going to be a Laker next season. I think that much is obvious. So now the question shifts to, like you said, where and I honestly I don't have the crystal ball to see it. I have to be honest with you he's either going to go to some subpar team that he can just be the quote best player, jack up 20 shots a night, go to these different arenas every night and have it be all about him, or he's gonna wanna go try to compete for a championship, but none of these contenders that he has been linked to, such as like maybe, a return to Cleveland or Dallas, they don't have the cap structure to fit him in, so he's gonna have to take the vet minimum or the mini mid-level exception. Can you see a world where LeBron goes from making $55 million this year to like three or four next season? I don't see that.

Speaker 1 58:30

No, and that goes back to the ego. And again I feel like this is kind of maybe other people would laugh at me saying that but I feel like I'm being pro-LeBron a little bit here because I feel bad for him, because you can just feel how weak he is, like mentally weak. It infuriates me that every freaking time that LeBron and his contract gets brought up, going back five, ten years now, they bring up Kobe signing what wasn't a max deal you know where I'm going with it. When he tore his Achilles and the Lakers offered him I think it was two years for $48 million, which is today what a role player would get and they said, well, yeah, you know Kobe taking all that money. That's why the team you know Kobe would have played for whatever made sense. I believe LeBron can't do that because his ego won't allow him to take 10, 12 million when somebody else is making 40 or 50.

Kobe's Last Game: Witnessing History

Speaker 2 59:21

Exactly. And the thing with the Lakers you know a lot of people talk about how lucky Kobe Bryant was to be a Laker. I actually don't see it that way. I think it was a detriment to him and to his overall legacy. I think they actively kind of sabotaged his career in multiple different stages, and one of which being the roster they surrounded him with, you know, and the coach that they picked with Mike D'Antoni, you know, for the twilight years of Kobe's career, Like, the Lakers essentially admitted like we don't have the roster to compete at all, so we might as well just give Kobe the money and let him just draw in, you know, sell tickets for us, like, keep us, you know, somewhat newsworthy because of just his presence. You know, if they were actually trying to build a championship caliber team around him at that point, he would have taken less. To your point.

Speaker 1 1:00:17

So if you had to, for your gut, what do you see LeBron doing then? I mean, obviously Cleveland makes the most sense, but Dan Gilbert's no fan, he doesn't want to help him roll it out.

Speaker 2 1:00:25

I mean like I said, cleveland is arguably the best team in the Eastern Conference at this point. You know Boston has gutted their team and they are going to be without Tatum for the entire year with the Achilles, and then who knows how he comes back thereafter. The Knicks are going to be there, the Pacers, who the representative of the East last year like. They're without Halliburton now for the whole year because he ruptured his Achilles. So I mean you can make a really real case here that the Cleveland is they. You know they won 60, I think, 64 games second to only Oklahoma City this past season. They won 60, I think, 64 games second to only Oklahoma City this past season. So probably for the next year or two, they have this window and they have a roster that's already pretty loaded and stacked up.

Speaker 2 1:01:07

I just don't think they have room for LeBron James. I think what makes the most sense would be Dallas. Honestly, yeah, yeah, he can mentor another very heralded blue-chip caliber guy in Cooper Flagg and he can re-team with Kyrie and AD. He's got Jason Kidd there, who, kidd, was an assistant coach, I believe, on the 2020 Bubble Laker Championship team. So Dallas makes the most sense to me. It can't happen this year, unless it's a buyout, and I don't think the Lakers are going to do that. So it would have to be next season in free agency. But again, looking at the structure of the book and their contracts, it's going to be some kind of a vet minimum for LeBron. So he really has to dig deep and search his soul. I honestly, stephen, have a gun to my head. I think his ego will be too big. I think he's probably going to end up in some lower tier team where he can just go and be the marquee show pony and just go about his little retirement tour and maybe take Bronny along with him.

Speaker 1 1:02:09

I forgot about Bronny. One of my biggest fear with it is Skev. Honestly is that and honestly, this is what I hope. I'm wrong. This is what I think is probably going to happen. Is he's going to survey the landscape, like you said, find out there's not a perfect fit, and he's just going to continue to hold the Lakers hostage, maybe take $25, $30 million, $40, something like that, because that's probably where he'll still get the most money, Unless, like you said, the new ownership has some balls and they decide to stop playing this game with him. That genie bus has been playing and I think he's just gonna continue to suck them dry, um, and then have the media say what a great guy he is for only taking 37 million or whatever it is that's I hope I'm wrong.

Speaker 2 1:02:50

It will be interesting. Uh, luca, because remember, luca signed the two. It's technically a three-year, I think 165 million contract, but he's got a player option in year three. So they're still working to kind of appease him and sell him on them. They have two guaranteed years to do it. So if LeBron is still, you know, piggybacking around and kind of bringing them down and his opportunities at competing, I mean that's a delicate tightrope that the Lakers are going to have to walk.

Speaker 1 1:03:19

Yeah, all right, so I got two more sports stuff for you and then I get into the entrepreneurial stuff with you here. You alluded to something I've thought a lot about, but it's just so amazing to me the difference and this is something that people don't think about and it could be for any sport with any player the place you come into when you're talking about Kobe being drafted by the Lakers and we both remember what it was like in the 90s when he got drafted and you had Eddie Jones and Nick Van Exel which I was a huge Nick Van Exel guy, by the way, but you had them in front of him and it was an era where teenagers coming out of high school weren't playing. It didn't matter if you were Kobe or Kevin Garnett or whoever else. It wasn't like how it is today. The difference that he had to fight through just to get on the court and then later in his career, like you said, the mismanagement, and this is bizarre, where you have an all-time great player like Shaquille O'Neal and you trade him for a bag of chips and Lamar Odom I mean it's just a joke.

Speaker 1 1:04:15

And even Phil Jackson, who I really respect, phil Jackson, and just a joke. And even Phil Jackson, who I really respect Phil Jackson and I guess I guess I like him but he held Kobe back. I've probably seen the story where Kobe had I remember it was nine straight 40 point games, eight, whatever it was and then Phil went to him we're losing the big guy, you've got to dial it back with the streak. And Kobe had 38 the next game and decided not to go for 40. And it's amazing the difference it makes when you're in an environment like that, where you're literally being told not to score, you're literally being told don't hold the team back with your star shining bright, versus something like LeBron and other people. Come into where it's all about you. We want to showcase you. What type of an impact in just in general, not even Kobe LeBron do you think that has on sports, the environment that you're drafted into? It can completely change a player's legacy.

Speaker 2 1:05:06

Absolutely, and it's not. It might not be as prevalent in the NBA. I'm a big NFL fan too. I follow football every bit as closely as I do the NBA, and I mean it really. It can make or break your entire career, your entire leg legacy. I mean, especially if you're, you know, like a quarterback or a wide receiver. Like what kind of you know offense are you getting drafted into? If you're a wide receiver, what kind of quarterback do you have there? And if you're a quarterback, you know what. What kind of structure do you have? What kind of coaching do you have? I mean it really it is.

Speaker 2 1:05:37

It can, it can make such a great impact on you. And you know some players, I mean they just get the raw end of the stick and some are kind of uplifted because they go to good situations and they're managed better and they're presented with better opportunities. You know, as it pertains to Kobe Bryant, you know, as we know, he was actually drafted by Charlotte and traded to the Lakers on draft night. And had he just stayed in Charlotte, had the trade never gone through, you know he would have gone to a team that was structured and built around him. You know, I did a little examination of his first two years in the league times that he was allowed to shoot like 18 times or more.

Speaker 1 1:06:20

My favorite stat you've ever done, by the way, that's great.

Speaker 2 1:06:24

And he was scoring like 24, 25 points per game when he got the freedom to shoot that amount of times. It's just, he only got the ability to do it like 12 or 13 times in his first two full years. But when you look at all these other guys the Michael Jordans, the Kevin Durants but when you look at all these other guys the Michael Jordans, the Kevin Durants, the LeBron Jameses they come in shooting 18, 19, 20 times a game from their first season in the league. And then not only that, once Kobe finally became a starter, well, he had to defer to Shaquille O'Neal and play within the context and the confines of that triangle system for the first full eight years of his career. So I mean, if Kobe went to Charlotte, stayed there years of his career, so I mean if Kobe went to Charlotte, stayed there and he could just become the focal point of an offense from year one and Stefan, mind you, that Eastern Conference was garbage for like 20 years.

Speaker 2 1:07:10

At that point, all-time weak Right, like that's the East that LeBron was running and going to all those finals, I think Kobe would have, at least he would have won a minimum of three championships. Still in my estimation, if not more. He probably would have gotten to more than the seven that he went to, but he also would have, to me, been the all-time leading scorer in NBA history. He probably would have had a top two point per game average along with Michael Jordan, and I think he would have had at least three league MVPs. I mean that's looking like a better career than what he actually had in LA, because he gets denigrated and diminished all the time because he played with Shaq for those first three.

Speaker 1 1:07:51

Let me ask you this, though, because I've thought about this a lot and I feel exactly the same way you just said, and I feel like even if he would have went to the Clippers or the Bulls when his first contract was up, it would have been that kind of deal. But if that had happened, do you think that people like us would love him as much as we do? Because I feel like part of the reason I love him is because he had to overcome all this crap.

Speaker 2 1:08:15

That's, I mean, that's very fair and that's part of just such a great point. People and you know they say, like, well, if Kobe could adjust, you know somehow swallowed his pride a bit and stay with Shaq longer, you know he would have won more Um, if he didn't push through injuries as much as he did, um, you know he wouldn't have had such a negative impact on his body. He would have stayed longer, had a long, better longevity, his numbers would look better. But that's not the way Kobe Bryant was wired.

Speaker 2 1:08:41

Like his mentality and the way that he did things was the reason why he was as great as he was. Like it couldn't have gone any other way that it did. So it's a great point and I think Kobe Bryant the reason he's such an impactful not just player but person, I think and the reason he engenders you know, just player but person, I think and the reason he engenders, you know, such a fond following now, even after his death, and transcends sports, really is just because of the mindset that he had to accept the challenges and to overcome them. And he wasn't a perfect person, like he was a flawed person at times and obviously like had flaws in his game at times, but like just way that he he attacked the challenges and overcame, like that just is.

Speaker 1 1:09:24

That's the epitome of kobe bryant even like, um, even the last three years of his career after the achilles tear. I mean, I that was pretty rough, I'm sure, for you too and for me watching it. Uh, just because the team around him was garbage, he obviously was himself. I think he played six games the first year back, you know, and then 35, the next actually scab. You remember, though, the second year back after the achilles, he was leading league in scoring for like the first month of the season. It's a horrible shooting percentage, but, but when he had his last game and he dropped 60, I said you know what the last three years were all worth it, because it just felt perfect.

Speaker 2 1:10:06

And I think, Stephan, you were in the building for that game right?

Speaker 1 1:10:10

Yeah, I was just going to ask you about the guy. You were as well, correct, that's right, yep.

Speaker 2 1:10:16

Yeah, it was. Actually, my mom is a big Kobe fan but she doesn't fly. So we went to his third to last game ever together in New Orleans and we drove from Pittsburgh together and the tickets were much more reasonable, of course, as you can imagine, in New Orleans than they were for that finale in Staples Center against the Jazz. And so my mom and I sat about two or three rows off the court and like at like midcourt, like right behind the Lakers bench, and you could see when Kobe came off, like it was apparent that he really wasn't planning on playing the fourth quarter because they they entombed him in ice, that he really wasn't planning on playing the fourth quarter because they entombed him in ice, like he had like this saran wrap running from his like shoulder down to his wrist on both arms, his entire, like knees and calves, just like wrapped in saran wrap and ice. And I mean this guy he basically couldn't move and the whole, but the whole arena just stood and was, were chanting for him, you know, but the whole arena just stood and was.

Speaker 2 1:11:20

We're chanting for him, you know, from the basically the beginning of the fourth quarter, the midpoint, and he begrudgingly like tore off, had the trainers, tear off all the ice and stuff, and ran out and and chucked up a couple more shots. But I remember I I showed up very early in the day, then I think it was three days later in LA and I was, you know, like the second or third person in line, uh, outside the door waiting to get in. And I was talking to these two guys from Sacramento that came, that came down for the, for the game, and it became apparent that I was a Kobe historian and a huge fan. And they asked me what my, what my expectations were for the game. And I said you know what, like just seeing him a few days ago, he can barely move.

Speaker 2 1:12:07

Um, I, you know, I would, I would love it if he could score 30, but like I, just hope that he doesn't embarrass himself Like I don't want, like right, like I just don't want 15 or 20 points, and wouldn't you know it, that son of a bitch went out and scored 60. And the last 15 points and the game winner. It was a microcosm of his entire career, fighting through the obstacles and the challenges and the adversity to produce something truly special. Oh man.

Speaker 1 1:12:31

And I got to tell you my story with that game. So I was working on a property. I had flown into Salt Lake City, utah, that morning at like 6 am. I'd left my car there because I was working on a property and I was driving back to Northern California from Salt Lake City and, for those that know the West Coast, you drive through a town called Elko, nevada, and on that eight hour drive driving I was like I knew the game was that night and I was like I've watched this guy, guy for 20, I can't miss his last game. So I pulled over at a Marriott in the middle of nowhere in Elko, in a Fairfield Marriott. I bought a ticket last second.

Speaker 1 1:13:06

Then I kept on driving instead of stopping in uh in, uh Sacramento, I kept on driving to San Francisco, flew down, got there right before game time and, uh, that was the most incredible sporting event that I've ever similar to yourself Actually I'm not even making it up or kidding with you, but somebody. I was talking with them before the game and I said I just hope he gets. I said I hope he gets 20. And then it didn't start out good. He was missing some shots at first and that second half. How did you feel walking out of there? Because walking out of there, I just felt like I was in a cloud.

Speaker 2 1:13:41

It's arguably the pinnacle of my life. Let's go, let's go.

Speaker 2 1:13:46

And I say I say it only only half jokingly, because like there were obviously at Staples center. So there's, there are these marquee celebrities and like very, very successful, famous people all over the place and they kept showing them on the Jumbotron like throughout the fourth quarter, and they looked like little kids, like they were having the best day of their lives too, but that's just. That was just the magic of that, of that moment. It was, you know, I listened to around part I guess it was no part in the interruption with Michael Wilbon and Tony Kornheiser the next day and Wilbon said that you know, I've been covering sports for 30 years. I've been to everything Super Bowls, you know Olympics, you know World Series. That was probably the most electric live event, sporting event that I've ever been to. So I mean that really just says it all, I think.

Debating the NBA's All-Time Rankings

Speaker 1 1:14:43

Yeah, and you remember they had those t-shirts they were selling that had, like Kobe's accomplishments, and on the t-shirt it said, uh, five career, 60 point games. And I was screaming. You got to change the t-shirt. You got to change it anyway. No, that's awesome. Where did you sit? Where were your seats for that one? I mean, I was not it it wasn't.

Speaker 2 1:14:58

They weren't great, it was like it was like middle. It was like middle tier kind of, but it was. You know, the seats were, the tickets were. It was just like they were crazy. But, like you said, like I, whatever there was really no value you could put on. Like that. It was an invaluable moment. Now, looking back, I honestly wish I sprung and really made it rain to get even lower down into the tier, because what an electric atmosphere in the arena. And then, like you said, in Figueroa afterwards when you got out, like just crazy yeah.

Speaker 1 1:15:31

No, that's fantastic, Okay, so let me ask you so what's your favorite? Before we get off of Kobe and then we'll get into all the other stuff, give me your other than the one we just talked about. What are your favorite Kobe moments? Because I am going to for those that don't know, I'm going to air this. We're recording this about a week and a half before, but we'll be airing this on Kobe Bryant's birthday.

Speaker 2 1:15:49

Yeah, I'll probably do some. I, you know, I met, I talked to you off off air here, so to speak. I'm going to my very high stakes and competitive fantasy football draft is on the 24th and Kobe, of course, his birthday is 820. I believe 823, 78 was his birthday, and then, of course, mamba International, mamba Day the next day, 824. So I'll do, I'll do something special. The last year is, it might just be so simple as me, reposting my like 20 minute Kobe goat case video which I, which I put up around around his, around that 823, 824 time. But you know, I think honestly it's, it's weird to say, but the, the, the last, the finale, is probably my top moment. Weirdly enough, you know, I saw him play live maybe 40 times, but that one, just with the context of everything that was involved with it, that's got to be one that's very, very high up there, maybe number one all time. For me it was either when he passed Shaq or Jordan. I want to say maybe it was when he passed Shaq.

Speaker 1 1:17:00

He passed Jordan, I remember, against the Timberwolves I don't remember who they played. When he passed Shaq.

Speaker 2 1:17:04

Okay, so it must have been Shaq then, because I lived in Philadelphia for a couple of years and I had this package of you know I could pick like 10 or 15. Not a full season package, but I had this thing where I could pick 10 to 15 games every year. So obviously I always picked Kobe's homecoming to Philly and I was there. I think it must have been when he passed Shaq on the all-time scoring list so that one's up there. I also would have to say the Game 7, I know he didn't shoot well, I get it. The game seven I know he didn't shoot well, I get it.

Speaker 2 1:17:38

But the game seven against Boston in the finals, what that game and series meant to him and his legacy, the fact that he was at four championships at that point and this was going to be for back-to-back, it was going to be to avenge that humiliating. I think it was like a 37-point loss in game six two years earlier to Boston. In Boston they were down 3-2 in that series. It did not look good if you remember. Like mid-30s they were down double digits. It was an extraordinarily low scoring game.

Speaker 1 1:18:08

I've never been on more pins and needles watching a game than that.

Speaker 2 1:18:12

Absolutely. And then you know, to have, you know the difference between 4 and 5, I think was going to be monumental, and just the fact that he would have been able to beat his you know the Lakers, you know bitter rival in Boston and the team, like I said, that did it to Kobe two years earlier. So that was that game seven. It was just that that was just a magical game, a magical series. That that I I think that game seven. And I was actually watching that game with my mom who, like I said, was a big Kobe Bryant fan. So that game in that moment has a very high spot on my all-time Kobe list as well.

Speaker 1 1:18:46

That was a great one. That's the reason why I still love Ron Artest to this day. Is that game there? But yeah, and I'm glad you brought that up because you've talked a lot about it on your channel and illustrated it, but that's the other one. There's like a dozen or so things that these idiots on, uh, mainstream media like to bring up and the six for 24 is is high on the list that they just love to talk about. But I mean it was a. It was an old school rock chuck, you know, defensive minded game not to get too far off on it again because I want to transition here but I mean 15 re. I think at what? 24 points, 15 rebound, right, and correct and he still.

Speaker 2 1:19:25

He was still the highest scoring player on either team, still scored the most points of any player on either team in the fourth quarter, um, and, like you said, 8178 I believe, was the final score in that game. Like both teams were under 40 shooting, I, I think, for the game, so nobody shot well, they were. It was just all out defense balls to the wall, I mean it just. It was just a quintessential low scoring very hard, defensively fought series in what was the best defensive era in league history.

Speaker 1 1:19:55

Yeah, without a doubt. Well, and it shows too. And I'll ask you I mean, I, I a sports stats nerd, you obviously are historian and I'll ask you, because I can't think of any Can you think of any other player in NBA Finals history that we know what their shooting percentage was there? You know the six for from a game. I can't, because and that's how much they've tried to dismantle Kobe's legacy is that everybody knows six for from a game. I can't, because and that's how much they've tried to dismantle Kobe's legacy is that everybody knows six for 24. I don't, I couldn't tell you what Michael Jordan's worst shooting performance was in the finals. I know he had bad one against the Sonics, but I don't know what it was. I sure as hell couldn't tell you LeBron's, because they won't talk about that Exactly.

Speaker 2 1:20:35

No, it's just. It's just one of the further narratives that are pushed to try to discredit Kobe the fact that he's an inefficient volume scorer, so of course nothing's ever taken into context with the era that he was playing in and what the true shooting and effective field goal percentages were league-wide averages. Kobe was always above those things.

Speaker 1 1:20:56

Yeah, you had a great video a week or two ago where you pointed that out and you were talking about it and I didn't know. I guess I think off the top of my head. You said Dirk Nowitzki, in his finals, when they won, didn't he shoot like 41%, 42%. Yeah, it's shocking, but you don't hear about that Anyway. So I got to ask you while we got you here, you know, just for the the fun, simple narrative stuff. So, officially, can I get your your top 10 all time players from you?

Speaker 2 1:21:29

I will give you, I'll give you. So I am working on a video which I keep, as you know, because you watch a lot of my lives. I tease this top 10 video all the time. That should is. It's actually going to hopefully be coming out sometime in the next month, but I'll give you. I don't. It's weird, I don't really have it's like my top anything. I always leave like the last spot open for a couple honorable mentions. So I don't have like an official, I don't think I have like an official top 10, but I'll give you my nine. I'll do that. And then typically it's not, I would say not any specific order, but I do. Jordan and Kobe are top two in my estimation. So those are my. That's my one and two spot. Then I've got Kareem. Still, I'm considering a movement down for Kareem, but as of right now, at the time of recording this, kareem is still three. I then have kind of one that surprises people. Duncan is then fourth. So that is my official Mount Rushmore.

Speaker 2 1:22:30

Those four players, just four elite two-way players all won at least five championships. Three of the four have at least 10 all-NBA defensive selections. Jordan was the only one who doesn't of that grouping, but Jordan won defensive player of the year and he played less than those three guys. He has nine first-team selections, so just four elite, all-time great two-way players and all elite winners with at least five. I then actually have Hakeem next Wow. So I'm a little bit higher than consensus on him too. I usually see him floating around 10 through 13-ish, but again the guy's peak was just so high. I kind of liken him to Giannis and Nicole Jokic today. He just, quite frankly, did not have the support from his franchise or have the requisite supporting cast to compete for a ton of championships. But as a two-way player he's really unrivaled, other than the four guys I've already mentioned. So those are pretty hard-set top five for me right now.

Speaker 2 1:23:38

Then after that I've got a wave of. I've got Bird and Magic in there, up next pretty much in six and seven, russell and Wilt, then in eight and nine, and then the honorable mentions. There's maybe five, six, seven guys that I throw in there. I'll even concede that guys like Steph Curry and LeBron James have a case to be at that 10th spot. Not necessarily, they wouldn't necessarily be my 10th selection. You know, I like Dr J to be kind of an honorable mention there as well, if you look at his ABA career with his NBA career. And then I really do believe Giannis and Jokic are nipping at the heels of some of these honorable mentions and they will have an outside shot maybe to get some kind of a mention into the 10th spot.

Speaker 2 1:24:26

Not my guy, moses, though you don't have Moses. Moses, he's definitely honorable mention range too. He's top 15, I'd say 15 to 16. Three MVPs definitely warrant some kind of a notice there and pretty high on the all-time list scoring as well, I think he's I want to say he's like 12th or 13th all-time on the scoring list with those three league MVPs. So yeah, moses gets, he gets a little shout out as well.

Speaker 1 1:24:53

I wasn't sure if I was going to bring it up, but now I have to. So this says something about me, and my wife would say this is a flaw. But I find somebody that I love, that I'm a big fan of, that I agree with everything on, and I try to find something that I disagree with them on, and there's one thing that I have here. So it's a light disagreement, because I love Tim Duncan too. What I feel like has happened is and it's the last, I don't know three, four years here everybody says the same sentence. They say, oh, tim Duncan's underrated. But if everybody says someone's underrated, then they're not underrated, right, and I think it's yet another way to discredit Kobe to try because obviously they were drafted a year apart or two years apart, no year apart and it to say that was his era.

Speaker 1 1:25:42

Those of us that actually watched it, like I, like you know, I listen to Bill Simmons. He makes an argument that Tim Duncan was the face of the league. He was never the face of the league. In my opinion, all-time great player. If someone wanted to make an argument that he's better than LeBron James, then that that's obviously. To me that's a fair, fair discussion. He owned him in the finals, but to put Tim Duncan even in the same league as Kobe, I think. I think we got to watch out for that.

Speaker 2 1:26:09

No, I agree, Even though I'm I am high on Tim Duncan, primarily just because you know, I the way I kind of value players and look, I have some right now. Magic Johnson is my worst defender in my top 10, ish, my top nine or 10. Ultimately, look, I don't think Nicole Jokic. I think he gets a lot of shit for being a bad defender. I think he's actually an underrated defender. We've reached a point where he's actually better than what consensus is. But him, him, if he gets into my top 10, which that is the trajectory that he will be in my top 10 at some point. Magic and and Jokic would be the only really two non great defenders in my top 10. And the and. So the thing that I really value is, you know, two way players, which Duncan is like Kobe and Duncan. Actually, cumulatively, those two players have their one and two. They have the most combined all NBA and all NBA defensive selections in league history Duncan and Kobe. And then I also the other thing that I really talk up a lot or that I really care about when I'm making these kind of listicles or rankings is like, how difficult were your rings? Like, not only like, of course, I want to see a lot of them, which Hakeem at five, only had two and Jokic only has one currently. But when I'm evaluating the rings, how difficult were they?

Speaker 2 1:27:28

I think Duncan and Kobe actually for guys that were dynastic, you know, because they both have five, that's while they might not have been on individual team if they weren't on team dynasties, they were an individual dynasty in and of themselves, their own right. So I think when you look at their supporting casts, they, other than Jordan, probably had kind of the weakest supporting cast to get to those five. So that's kind of those are just as truncated as I can. That's kind of why I think just in a as truncated as I can. That's kind of why I think highly of Duncan. You know he's won. Kobe actually is the only player ever to win back-to-back titles without another top 75 player. But Duncan actually does have they're not back-to-back but he does have multiple titles without a top 75 guy. So those are two of the only.

Speaker 1 1:28:19

Really I think they might be the only two players you can say that about, other than I think Steph Curry has two as well, without yeah, yeah, I just, I just don't feel like he's. He's in Kobe's class, but we agree, I agree with you on that.

Speaker 2 1:28:30

Yeah, yeah, I think. Look, I think Jordan and Kobe are of their own tier, like I see these like goat pyramids, things like on X or whatever and like, and the ones that have just Jordan and Kobe at the top and then it's another tier separately for everybody else. That's the way I see it. I think Kobe got a lot closer to Jordan than a lot of people want to admit for whatever reason. I think it's it's really razor close. Actually, I think Jordan's more accomplished and has more accolades and I think Jordan. I do recognize Jordan as being the top spot, but I think Kobe's very, very close and I don't think realistically, anybody else is close to those two.

Speaker 1 1:29:10

Yeah, it is weird too to your point about the defensive side of things. It's funny everybody cares about it when they're playing like on a season-by-season basis, but it seems like mainstream doesn't take that into account at all when all-time rankings are brought into it.

Speaker 2 1:29:28

Yeah, and I don't understand it. Maybe it's because there's really no good two-way players left today, other than, really, giannis is the only guy I think and I guess, guess, look, you could put Kawhi Leonard in there, but he's Kawhi's not healthy enough generally for me to to to talk about in any kind of an impactful way. But I mean, giannis is, you know, I think he has four or five first team all defensive selections. He won defensive player of the year along with Jordan and Hakeem. Those are the only three players in league history to accomplish that feat.

Speaker 2 1:29:59

So, but other than that, like you just don't see it. Like, look at the top flight players today. You know Luka, nikola, jokic yeah, not really highly decorated defensive players. Even you know, shea Gilgis-Alexander is presented as this elite two-way player, but he's like the fifth best defender on his own team. That presented as this elite two-way player, but he's like the fifth best defender on his own team. So you know, I just I'm just not seeing this. You know, preponderance of all these great two-way players. So maybe maybe modern and current media is just forgetting that a lot of elite players did play both ways back in the day.

Speaker 1 1:30:33

Yeah, all right, I could keep going on the sports, but I'm going to get into the other stuff here. So we talked a little bit at the top about what led you to start the channel and all that. Obviously, you mentioned a couple of names, with Tom Cruise and Jim Rome there. But I was curious what sports media personalities have inspired you over the years, and are there any mainstream media sports personalities now that do inspire?

The Business Side of YouTube Success

Speaker 2 1:31:00

you. Yeah, like I admire Michael Wilbon and and Cornizer to mention I mentioned, I grew up watching that show. Part of the Interruption or whatever I always confuse Part of the Interruption around the horn I think it's PTI was the one that those two were on. You know that started, I think and us being the same age, it started, I think, when we were in high school. So I kind of grew up watching those two and I didn't mention this real quick. I don't want to sidebar, but I was at not only Kobe's last game but Michael Jordan's last game that he played with the Wizards. So his last game in the NBA was in Philadelphia and I was in Pittsburgh at the time. So I made the trek to go to Michael. I was at Michael Jordan's last game as well and, weirdly enough, I'm a Tom Brady guy and I live near-ish to Tampa and I was at the Cowboys-Buccaneers game his last game ever.

Speaker 2 1:31:55

So I was at Tom Brady last, last games ever played but I actually walked with Michael Wilbon, uh, for about 20 minutes from the parking lot into the arena for during Jordan's last game, uh, and he's he was just a great guy really, um, very friendly and accommodating.

Speaker 2 1:32:14

So, uh, you know, I've just been a fan of his throughout the years, but in terms of people that inspire me or whatever it would, just it would have to be Jim Rome. I people mention it. It's not a conscious thing that I do, um, but I, I I guess I have some of my delivery and I guess even like my tone and voice that sometimes remind people like they'll ask me in the comments at times, like, are you a big Jim Rome fan, or whatever, because you know there are some elements that are reminiscent. It's not intentional, it's just that I've watched or listened to Rome for since I was probably seven or eight years old at this point and I, he just he is a guy that, like, he's just been kind of like my, my idol in terms of on the sports broadcasting side of things.

Speaker 1 1:32:57

How does it make you feel, cause I, I, I was wondering what, what he was doing now, and I guess he has a YouTube channel. Um, and and I, like I said earlier, I was a skip Bayless I'm sure you at least kind of sort of liked skip at one point because he articulated some of the things we're talking about. How does it make you feel that you have videos that are crushing two of your idols? That's kind of cool.

Speaker 2 1:33:23

Yeah, it's, yeah, it's, it's. I mean, it definitely is humbling. And even I I know you're probably aware, but I don't know if everyone in your audience is that I do, uh, work with Jason Whitlock from time to time.

Speaker 1 1:33:33

That's right yeah.

Speaker 2 1:33:35

And, uh, you know, I've been probably on his show I don't know 40 or 50 times now at this point over the last two years and I went to, I was in studio with him for actually for a week earlier around April of this year, I went to Nashville and I was in studio with him.

Speaker 2 1:33:50

So and you know, I grew up watching him too, like he was on the sports reporters when I was in grade school and high school. So you know, it was kind of like a, you know, like a fangirl type moment when he reached out to me the first time. But you know, and he has, he's got a huge channel. I mean, he's got, you know, half a million subs and probably, I don't know three or 400 million channel views, but on a per video to video release basis. Like you know, my daily videos kind of outdraw his a lot of the time. So it's yeah, I mean it's. It is humbling to to see just some random guy that likes to talk shit about sports that, you know, in his late thirties, decided to start this thing is has got to this point relatively quickly.

Speaker 1 1:34:30

And that's what's fun about it too, and I guess that's a perfect segue into one of the things I wanted to get your opinion on as someone who's living it at the highest level.

Speaker 1 1:34:38

It's fascinating to me and I'm so. We're the same age but I'm, in my brain I'm kind of like a 75 year old man, and so I was really slow to YouTube and it was just the last three or four years I started watching, and it's wild to me and I think it's a blessing in a way that that people like yourself that wouldn't have had a voice even 10 years ago, let alone 20 years ago, can overnight have a massive audience, have a massive voice and get a different perspective out there. That's a beautiful thing. And in the case I guess I'm a hypocrite, because in the case of people I like, like you, I think it's great. Then I see some people that have massive millions of audiences and I'm watching it. I'm like well, what are they even talking about? What are they doing? How do you feel about just where media is today? And it's kind of the line between celebrity and everyday people is blurred to me to some extent.

Speaker 2 1:35:32

Yeah, it's just so different. Things have changed, like we're our generation, kind of like our age demographic, like we've seen just a massive shift from just news the way news is disseminated, reported, whatever over our lifespans. It's been absolutely shocking to see. You know, it's almost to the point where traditional media outlets are just all but dead. You know, like newspapers, magazines, like print periodicals really aren't a thing at all anymore. And even television is kind of like all of these like ESPNs, all of the CNNs, fox News is all of that stuff, like they have to have these accompanying kind of you know either YouTube channels or they're on X as well, and a lot of people just digest their news or get their news in these alternative ways. Now, but, to your point, anybody and everybody with a handle or whatever can just hop on, you know, any of these platforms and start talking about whatever they want to talk about and try to build an audience. So it's, it's, it's honestly, it's crazy Like I I've sat back for years, kind of like, like I said at the beginning of my, my journey or you know my, when I got out of college I was kind of in the media for like two years and then I diverted down a different path and you know I was sitting in my late thirties and I'm thinking like, well, it's just, you know, I procrastinated, or you know, I was just too, you know, inundated with other things and I, you know, it's just over for me.

Speaker 2 1:37:03

Like I don't, I don't really have like a path to get back in it at this point, like I don't know how to do it. Um, and luckily, like people around me, like my wife watches. She was really into YouTube at the time and I'm, I really never watched YouTube. So I started watching, or eavesdropping and overhearing some of the people she was watching and listening to. I'm like, well, these people kind of stink.

Speaker 2 1:37:23

And then I looked at their, their, you know, a couple hundred thousand, you know, subscribers. I'm like, well, I could do that, I could, I could do that. So, uh, you know, I just kind of started doing it and you know it's you don't want to compare yourself. Like, I see, I see some like to your point. I see people with bigger voices, bigger platforms than me and I still look at them and I'm, from a competitive standpoint, I'm like, well, I'm, I'm better than them right now. Like, why, like, how am I? How am I not, you know, have I not reached that level or whatever at this point? But, you know, I also just have to stay grounded. And look at all of the people around me that have been doing it for 10 years, 12 years, 13 years, and they're still, you know, struggling to just kind of get started. Um, you know, in terms of the audience that I that I've amassed, so I, I just have to just be grateful for what I have and and just keep working as hard as I can to get bigger.

Speaker 1 1:38:22

Yeah, and, and I I mean, and just I mean, as you can tell, and and you know I've I don't watch anything other than sports content and you are and I'm not saying it to suck up to you because you're, you really are, I mean, and that's that's why I love it so much, it's, it's just a beautiful thing because, combination of delivery, you got the look. You, you know, handsome guy, you know, not as handsome as me, but that's okay, you know, and and articulate, I mean, it's at the top tier. And I don't want to insult anybody either and I don't know, these people might be some of your friends, but I saw some of the stuff you were doing earlier, earlier on, you know, and I'm watching it and I'm thinking these guys are all great, that's fine, but they're not in the same tier. And I, to me, you're kind of like Kobe in 98, where everybody who watched him play was like, wow, this guy's got it. We just have to give him the opportunity.

Speaker 1 1:39:04

But how do you decide? As you're navigating the waters of YouTube and it's such a thing that's still evolving every day, to where everybody, I think, is trying to figure it out to some extent. How do you decide where you're going to collaborate or what you're going to do from a content standpoint? How do you pick the videos? You do Because it's got to be tough for you. Since you're genuinely passionate about the things you talk about, you're not really looking at it from a clickbait standpoint, or does that come into play at all? Do you say, okay, this topic's going to perform better than this one?

Speaker 2 1:39:37

Well, yeah, this topic's going to perform better than this one. Well, yeah, like we were talking about at the beginning, like I'm getting to the point finally now, after like two years that I'm I'm starting to at least acknowledge the fact that this is a business, and I have to start thinking about it as if it were a business. Um, but at the heart of that, though, the messaging and the content is always going to be things that I am passionate about and that I really want to want to discuss or want to talk about, but, but absolutely, like I know, going in when I'm, when I'm working on a video, like I know it's going to, it's going to hit or it's not going to hit. For the most part, very, very seldom do I put something up and it either underwhelms or overwhelms. What my, what my expectation is. After you know, at the beginning I had obviously I had no idea what I was doing. I didn't know anything about the algorithm. Now, you know, I think I've published 550 videos, I think over the last over the last two years.

Speaker 2 1:40:28

So, yeah, now I kinda I kinda know what, what I'm looking at and and what to expect from from things, from video to video, but I think the one element of it is on on some days. There there are certainly some stuff that I'm I'm even more excited to work about and work on than than on in other days.

Speaker 1 1:40:48

Yeah, has there. And and how much have you had to to dive in on the algorithm itself? Like how much have you had to go? Okay, because I mean I had kind of a similar on the real estate side, a similar thing to where I'm watching. I've been doing real estate for 20 plus years and I've had a lot of unique experiences. And I see some of these kids they're literally 21 years old and I'm like dude, like that's cool, but like you can't know what you're talking about there, like that's cool, but like you can't know what you're talking about. There's not, you haven't had enough time and they get a million views and I. And then I always thought, well, I could just hop on YouTube and do the same thing and it hadn't worked for me. But how much of it is just making the content good versus the algorithm itself and studying that? What's the mix?

Speaker 2 1:41:35

Yeah, I mean I.

Speaker 2 1:41:36

I honestly I think it is pretty frustrating sometimes because the algorithm is this like unknown entity of which no one really knows, like how to feed it or what's required to succeed with it.

Speaker 2 1:41:50

I honestly think and this is an unfortunate statement I'm about to make I think the presentation of the video is more important oftentimes than the actual content of the video. So I think the thumbnail, the title and then just the technical edits are more important in some instances than what you're saying and like the value of you know what you're providing, which is which is pretty sad. Like when I started, I thought to myself, well, I can talk, like I know I can talk, I can write, like this is going to be pretty easy. But lo and behold the thing, the things I didn't really know about, which was like thumbnails and editing and all this and audio and all this stuff, like the things I didn't know about was was really, is really what drives popularity to some degree, which is, I think, kind of kind of sad. But it's it's more of a commentary maybe on society as well, not just the platform.

Speaker 1 1:42:51

Yeah, no, that makes perfect sense. And I gotta be honest too, cause, like you, look at, um, some of these, Mr Beast and people like that, and a lot of them give the same advice. They're like, well, just make good content and I get that, We've all been there who've tried to do it to where you make something like you said, where you feel like what I'm saying is really good. But your definition of good content changes right the further you go up the tier, because the content isn't just what you're saying, Like you said, it's all those other ancillary things. Well, let me ask you this too. So again, as a fan of yours, and my initial thought when I first saw him like gosh, I hope this guy gets on ESPN or FS1 or whatever, which sounds like it's still a goal of yours. But then I thought to myself does he even want that? Because maybe YouTube is a more powerful platform than the networks at this point. So what are some of your goals? Where would you like to see Jay Skappenick two years from now?

Speaker 2 1:43:52

Yeah, I mean, even as of two years ago, when I started doing this, you know, my goal was still like, kind of, I want to, you know, get on ESPN or get on FSN or like, do one of the become one of those you know kind of talking heads on one of those platforms, but I think it's the Wi-Fi and equipment.

Speaker 2 1:44:25

So, you know, I still feel as if I have goals of getting much bigger.

Finding Your Passion at Any Age

Speaker 2 1:44:30

Maybe I'll go down this platform of like, maybe I'll do start a podcast sometime within the next next year and see how big I could, I could grow that Maybe maybe I can get on, uh, you know, ESPN or one of these other places kind of, uh, you know, like a McAfee, where he essentially has maintained his own footprint, like he does it. He like he didn't move to, um, you know to wherever I think it's, uh, bristol, connecticut is where ESPN headquarters at, um, you know. So maybe I could get on one of these platforms, um, you know, build out a studio, a remote studio from where I'm living, and just kind of not not, you know, uproot my entire life but still have, you know, that kind of exposure. And mainly what I'm looking for, sevin, is the ability to just bust up these media trolls that I see every day, like I just want to just get on against these people like Nick Wrights the Nick Wrights of the world and just destroy them in head-to-head debate. That would make me so happy Jay.

Speaker 1 1:45:28

I would be him and Ryan. Something about Ryan Russillo he's not as overt as Nick Wright, but something about him just really pisses me off. I'd love to see you slaughter either or both. Seems like there's more profit too, in a way. I mean like you. Look at the McAfee deal. I think he got 18 million a year just for them to license his show he was already doing on YouTube. How hard has that been navigating the business side of things? You've touched on a couple of times already that you're getting into it now and it sounds like you have a good support system around you too, but how difficult is that to navigate?

Speaker 2 1:46:06

Very, very difficult. It's not just that, yeah, it's the business element of it. It's trying to facilitate brand deals, sponsorships and stuff. You know, trying to facilitate brand deals, sponsorships and stuff. But it's also, you know, trying to the expansion to other platforms and trying to grow, you know, organically there. And you know, growth on other platforms oftentimes helps facilitate growth on YouTube.

Speaker 2 1:46:34

So those things are, they've really just been ancillary to me to this point, because my I've been consumed with for two years, basically, like I just have to put out content, like I just have I just have to work, be working on, you know, videos or um, doing lives or something, like I have to be putting out content essentially either, or working towards it every day and every waking minute of every day, like that's basically been my, my primary and really only focus.

Speaker 2 1:46:58

So I, until most recently, like I've really I've just dropped the ball on some of these other elements and that's because I really haven't been viewing it as a business and I I think, uh, one of the things that I'm starting to get into now is building out a team, like having more people come on and help me, um, because I'm getting too caught in the weeds, I think, with some of the, some of the smaller elements of of the channel from day to day and it's taking away like my overall vision and my ability to plan for what's next. And you know you as a, as an entrepreneur and a and a businessman. Like you know, like you, you probably spend primarily. Like you devote your attention to things that you're good at, like I. You know it's come to the point where, like I'm, I'm really doing all of the secondary things pertaining to building this channel and doing like the little minutiae elements, and I haven't been able to focus on things that I, that I really am good at the majority of the time.

Speaker 1 1:47:55

And that's where your team, like you said, is so critical. And it's funny too. A lot of times, when people are trying to help you, everybody wants to do the same stuff, everybody wants to do the fun stuff. That's why I have a lot of respect for people that want to do that grimy stuff. You know, whether it's editing or in your case, or in my case, it might be dealing with a busted air conditioner at a property or whatever, but which, if you do stay at Panama City, we did get a brand new air conditioner in July, by the way, but anyway, that was.

Speaker 1 1:48:26

That's a nice segue to what I was going to ask you. What has? It sounds like it's been fantastic from what you said already, but what is the reaction been like from people in your inner circle that have seen you grow like this? Obviously, you mentioned your wife, your parents, but I mean because I can tell you honestly, to make it personal again, for me we're an entrepreneurial show and real estate show for the most part, but I love sports, obviously. So when I've talked about sports, I've had clients and people come up to me like, why are you talking about basketball? What are you? Are you okay? Like what's wrong with you, and so have you. Have you dealt with any negative pushback from your inner circle, or is it just all been positive?

Speaker 2 1:49:05

It's mostly been all positive. Um, and you know to be, to be totally transparent, like I'm, I'm lucky in the sense that I do have a very I talk, I talk about her sometimes. My wife is very understanding and accepting and we fortunately were in a position in our lives where, you know she was okay with me just kind of quitting, quitting everything that I was, you know, quitting my job, and just essentially saying, look, I'm going to take this, I'm going to take a year here and maybe make no money at all doing this thing, and you know she's like that's okay basically. So, like, whatever you feel, uh, like you have to do, we're okay, we're at a point where we're good, like you, you can do whatever. You can take your, you know, chase your stupid dream here for a year, and if you, if you flop terribly, you know you just get another job.

Speaker 2 1:49:55

So, um, so she was was very supportive, uh, you know, from the, from the beginning, and it's been, uh, you know it's just it's been a pretty rewarding, rewarding journey and my, my parents, or especially my mom, is like my biggest fan. So she's like, she like spends like an hour to a day watching my channel and, and you know doing things on, you know trying. She doesn't know much about technology she's. I think she'll be 76 here in about a week.

Speaker 2 1:50:20

So she doesn't she's not good with with, with commenting and liking, but she does put in the hours. She watches all of my videos multiple times, so it's just been fun. And then my friends and stuff have all have all been really supportive and think it's it's just a cool thing I'm doing. So, yeah, it's been really really no negativity. It's it's just a cool thing I'm doing. So, yeah, it's been really really no negativity. Uh, even even you know the the vast majority of uh, of response from from people on online has been probably like 95%, overwhelmingly positive. So you know, I'm kind of a divisive figure in some instances, like I have some pretty, some pretty strong and hot takes. I was expecting to be, you know, a little more hated, but it's just been a lot of a lot of positivity and support for by and large. So it's I've I've been really lucky in my, in my experience.

Speaker 1 1:51:06

No, that's great. Well, I think it's like we touched on earlier. I think it's just. There wasn't a voice that could properly. There's some people that love Kobe, which is great, but there wasn't a, and I don't want to paint it. Honestly, I got to catch myself here, cause I don't want to paint you as just a pro Kobe channel, cause you're a lot more than that, um, but there wasn't anybody articulating the angles that you articulate, and I think once you filled that vacuum, it was just all positive. That's a ballsy thing, you just said, though, so you dedicated. You said I'm going to do a year of this, no matter what. That's a ballsy choice.

Speaker 2 1:51:43

Yeah, at the time I don't know what that, what it is now like, what, the what, the plat, the metrics or the, whatever, the uh, I the thresholds you have to hit.

Speaker 2 1:51:51

But at the time, um, I had just messed around on the channel. Like I said, my friends had started it for me like four years ago, and I had maybe posted 15 to 20 videos in the first two years. And, you know, in March 2023, I'm just like, look, I'm just going to give everything I have here for a year and I think I had four or 500 subscribers, the, the threshold at that point was a thousand subscribers and 4,000 public watch hours to be monetized and become, to be able to be part of the, the YouTube partner, um, system where, like, google pays you, uh, for advertising space and so forth. So, you know, I was like, let me see how quickly I could get monetized and then, like, how far you know I can, I can take it in in a year and see. You know, and I set, you know, at the time, like arbitrary, you know goals and stuff for that first year and I I surpassed all of those things within like the first six months.

Speaker 1 1:52:52

Yeah, I was going to say, yeah, with one video, really Right, and then it's all been up from there. Yeah, um, all right, my friend, two more questions for you. I think you're one silly. And then one, whatever, who, if you could debate, give me your top two or top five how many you want to do, really, but give me your top debate target could be media figures, sports figures, could be be Donald Trump, if you want.

Speaker 2 1:53:16

whoever, I would say probably Nick Wright. I know I just mentioned him, but he's very, very high on my list. I think he's about the same age as you and I are. We're all very similar age. He has been a principal LeBron stooge for basically at least a decade, and he fancies himself a bit of an expert debater and also an intellectual. So I would absolutely love the opportunity to go head-to-head against him. He would probably be number one. You know it's a great question. If I were to look outside of the sports landscape I also dislike Colin Cowherd, I have to say so he might be on the list, you know, I would say honestly I would say Gilbert Arenas, but I've actually have gotten the chance to debate him head-to-head, so I guess he's removed from my wish list, though I wouldn't mind going back in at Gil and taking another stab at him. I've debated him twice now, so I think I've gotten the better of him both times.

Speaker 1 1:54:29

That was probably my favorite scat moment.

Speaker 2 1:54:33

You know, I don't know, I'm trying to think of somebody I thought maybe LeBron himself.

Speaker 1 1:54:36

You might say, I thought maybe that would be, but I mean I would.

Speaker 2 1:54:40

I would love to sit down with LeBron. There's, there's no, there's no doubt about that. But I think I kind of I would maybe even feel a little sorry for LeBron if he had to sit down across from me. So I don't, I don't know, maybe I would take his surrogate, his clutch sports brethren there. Maybe I would take one of those flunkies instead, maybe Rich Paul, the lead clutch flunky. Maybe I would take him on. That would be a good one.

Speaker 1 1:55:09

Yeah, he's more equipped, at least to have a coherent sentence with you. Final question I believe Somebody is listening to this or watching this and they have a message that they want to share with people like you did and still do. What would be your nutshell advice for them on how to navigate the waters of YouTube and getting that message out there?

Speaker 2 1:55:33

Not to go overly long on this final question, but I, you know, I mentioned Jim Rome being like a kind of a, like a, a mentor type, even though I I, of course, don't know him, but he's like been my idol, um, you know, for so many years he was. He was uh propping up this, uh, he has like two or three podcasts and I listened to his daily show, um, still, and he was kept pumping this podcast, the reinvention podcast with Jim Rome, and uh, probably for like six months I heard him talking about it and uh, you know, finally one day I decided I was going to, I was going to listen to just the first episode and see how, how, how it went, and the first episode was just like a half an hour of him laying it out, uh, what, the, what the podcast was going be typically about an hour long and he was going to have like high performers in various different industries or professions that also overcame some massive challenge or reinvented themselves in some way, with the overall goal being. Rome was, you know, he's about 60 years old and he was just inducted into the Radio Hall of Fame and he felt like, you know, the loved ones around him family and friends were kind of treating him like he was kind of at the end of things and it was time to be, you know, celebratory and reflective in his life and he that got him really sad and depressed because you know he wanted to, to try to find a way to ensure that the best is still in front of him, even at, even at 60, even after achieving all that he had. And the, the, the message, the messaging just really resonated with me and, and you know I think that that it would be my like, my principal message is you know I'm I'm kind of obsessed with timeframes and ages and getting older and all this stuff.

Speaker 2 1:57:14

Me too, actually, but you know, and it's just, I fear it. Like I bemoan my birthday every year and I'm just it, just it always gets me down and I'm always like, well, I haven't done this, that or the other by this stage or this age, and I think it's. I'm trying to become more positive just overall and I just think, like if there's something that not necessarily YouTube, but if there's something that anyone that's listening to this that wants to do whether they're 25, 35, or 65, really the time is going to pass anyway. You're going to lose those years that follow anyway. Do you want to spend those years doing something still that you either hate or that you're dissatisfied with, or do you wanna just start working in the direction of getting on a path that you could be happy about and proud of? So I think it's never too late to do that.

Speaker 2 1:58:05

In terms of just YouTube specifically, it really is. For some, I guess maybe it's just as easy as oh, let me just upload this stupid video and get a lot of views. But it actually is an absolute grind, especially at the beginning. Like it's a lot of learning how to do different things and how to you know, like I said, like editing lighting. You know what your thumbnail looks like, trying to maximize the title and all this stuff and then just being consistent enough and you know not. You know you're going to fail at the beginning. You're going to put things up to get five views but, like, are you just going to be, you know, tenacious enough to keep coming back and keep uploading and keep putting things, putting in the work and keep putting out the content. That's really what it's all about. I really do believe, like if someone is willing to work hard enough and just not give up, like pretty much anybody can succeed at this thing.

Speaker 1 1:59:03

Yeah, and that's where it helps, right To when you really genuinely are passionate about whatever it is that you're putting out there. I've had a lot of people over the years ask me like literally just the question, how do I make a bunch of money? And I always ask them well, like, well, what are you passionate about? And it's shocking to me how many people are perplexed by that. And there were. They'll say, like well, whatever makes me the most money. I'm like, well, no, that's the doesn't work that way. You have to really love what you're doing. You'd have to be in a position where you would do it for free and then find out how to make money off of what that thing is.

Speaker 2 1:59:32

Exactly, I think it's. You know, I've worked in different industries and done different things and I think I could have, I think I could have made a lot of money throughout my lifetime if I just, you know, put my head down and just climbed the ladder and did those things. But ultimately, I think if you're, if you work hard at something and you're and you're great at it and you're basically your passion and stuff comes through in it. I think that's really how you make money and are satisfied about the money that you're making. I, you know, like money never really fulfilled, never fulfilled me.

Speaker 2 2:00:08

I think now, now that I'm making money doing this and in some instances, like good money, now it is now I am proud of of. Uh, you know, when I, when I get a good deal or whatever, or uh, if a channel pops off and I'm and I have like a big, big day like I, like those, now, all of a sudden, like I am proud of or excited about, um, you know, when I have a good day, money wise, because it's to me it's kind of showing like I'm getting in the right, I'm moving in the right direction, like I am, I am really good at this thing and I, and I'm being valued for it.

Speaker 1 2:00:42

Yeah, Well, and it's if you're, even if you're making a lot of money, if you're doing something you don't love, all you're thinking the whole time is how can I get out of this, get enough money to where I can leave this and do what I? Really, you might as well just do what you want to do anyway.

Speaker 2 2:00:52

That's great.

Speaker 1 2:00:53

Well, jay, thank you so much for doing this. It's an honor and for anybody listening to this. If you somehow are listening to this and you're subscribed to me, but you're somehow not subscribed to him, if you want to hear from a great guy that's a sports historian that has a lot of takes and also you're going to be doing NFL, I know this season more prominently, go check out scap attack. But thank you, my friend really enjoyed it. Stefan, my pleasure.

Speaker 2 2:01:17

Thank you, my friend Really enjoyed it. Stefan, my pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. I look forward to you know furthering the relationship and definitely it was an honor to talk to you tonight and we'll have to do it again sometime.